FNA Oneness Pentecostalism Heresy Exposed More Dangerous than Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons
Comment section
Jeff Coons 2 days ago (edited)
Hello Andres Landeros You never grammatically demonstrated from John 10:30; John 17:3 and 5 that the Father and Jesus are one person. Do not explain the verses. Use the words in the verses to show that the Father and Jesus are one person. Please do not go to Deuteronomy 6:4. It has nothing to do with my question regarding the grammar of the above three verses.
2 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
In John 17 one person is praying. God by definition doesn’t need to pray. Jesus prayed as a man. The glorification refers to the death burial and resurrection. God’s plan fulfilled brings glory to God. Jesus says “the hour is come” referring to the death on the cross. Jesus was not crucified before the world was except for in the plan and mind of God. It wasn’t fulfilled until “the hour is come”. After Jesus prayed as a man in John 18 they came and bound Jesus to crucify Him. The hour has come. Context sir.
3 Jeff Coons 2 days ago
Again you used an explanation. Use the words of Jesus. Do you know what grammar is?
4 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
Jeff Coons I did use the words of Jesus. Jesus said “the hour is come...” I’m not isolating verse 5 from the context. Verse 1 sets the contexts for the whole chapter. The hour that Jesus is speaking of is the hour of his betrayal. You won’t be using proper grammar by taking one verse out of the context. “The glory” that Jesus speaks of in John 5 is the death on the cross. We all know that Jesus was not crucified “before the world was” but was speaking of the plan God had for the salvation of mankind before the world was. The lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world. Do you know what grammar is? Do you know what context is?
5 Jeff Coons 2 days ago (edited)
I am beginning to find you a complete waste of my time. I have lost track of the number of times I have asked you to show me from the grammar of these three verses how the Father and Jesus are one person. Not once have you used the words in these three verses to answer my grammatical question.
7 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
@Jeff Coons John 17:5 the glory Jesus says he had before the world was has nothing to do with two persons. In order for you to understand John 17:5 you need to understand it in the context which begins with John 17:1. The glory Jesus was speaking of in John 17:5 is the death, burial and resurrection. Jesus did not actually die before the world was except for in the plan and foreknowledge of God. You see two persons because you fail to realize that Jesus as a man spoke in John 17 as only one person. God is omnipresent so He was able to be in heaven and on earth at the same time. This is why Jesus as a man looked to heaven and said “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:” the term “Son” always refers to God manifested in the flesh. The death of Jesus on the cross brings glory to God when he resurrected from the dead.
8 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
@Jeff Coons I have shown you with grammar and context from the verses you asked. Will you accept the answer? That’s the real question.
9 Jeff Coons 2 days ago
@Andres Landeros It has become truly clear that you are incapable of using English grammar. I have asked you countless times to use grammar based on the words in John 10:30, John 17:3 and 5. You have repeatedly refused to do so. You keep giving explanation. It is utterly impossible based on the words of Jesus and the grammar to insist that Father and Jesus are one person. They have places for people who talk about a person while believing they are the person they are talking about. I will discuss the chapter context when you show the grammar of the three verses. Also, you have to use the words in the three verses.
10 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
@Jeff Coons you said, “they have places for people who talk about a person while believing they are the person they are talking about” John 17:5 Jesus was speaking of the Father and the son. So does Jesus need to be in that place since he was talking about Himself? You believe that Jesus is only the son right?
11 Jeff Coons 1 day ago
@Andres Landeros Again, no grammatical explanation of the three verses. You say you have given the grammar. You have simply given more explanations. John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." How can the Father and Jesus be one person based on the words in this verse?
12 Andres Landeros 1 day ago
Jeff Coons you ask how can the Father and Jesus be one person. Because father and son are titles and roles that Jesus has. Jesus is His name. One person speaks in John 17:3,5. Jesus was not a trinitarian due to the fact that he spoke of the Father as the ONLY true God in John 17:3. How can one divine person say to another divine person that He is the only true God? Is it not your belief that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God? Jesus himself says the Father is the only true God. Obviously He was speaking as a genuine human being without stopping to be God. One person many different titles. Limiting God to only three titles is what you are doing. One God can have more than one title and more than one role but that does not mean that he is more than one person. Also Jesus has more than one nature. Humanity and divinity. So there’s your answer once again.
13 Berean Perspective Apologetics 19 hours ago
@Andres, you and Jeff should have a discussion on my channel sometime. You open to a live discussion?
14 Jeff Coons 1 second ago
@Berean Perspective Apologetics Yes I am open to a live discussion. I would like to see Andres apply the following definition of grammar to John 10:30; 17:3,5. Merrian-Webster definition of grammar “the study of the classes of words, their inflections … and their functions and relations in the sentence” online
15 Andres Landeros 13 hours ago
Berean Perspective Apologetics Yes is open. I would have to make time for it so I don’t have any interruptions. I’ll let you know as soon as I’m free.
16 Berean Perspective Apologetics 13 hours ago
Hi there. Cool. It will be a fair discussion, respectful, I’ll be on that. I’ll touch base with Jeff letting him know you are interested. For discussion let me know which evenings you could be available and I’m Pacific Time generally I start my shows around 7pm.
17 Jeff Coons 13 hours ago
@Berean Perspective Apologetics Just so we are clear The debate should be about the grammar of John 10:30; 17:3,5
18 Berean Perspective Apologetics 13 hours ago
@Jeff @Andres you both communicate with each other on the discussion debate specifics. I’ll set it up when ready, agreed upon things from you guys.
19 Jeff Coons 11 hours ago
@Andres Landeros In this discussion, do you agree to focus on the words in John 10:30; 17:3,5? The topic, Is the Father and Jesus one person, or are the Father and Jesus distinct persons?
20 Andres Landeros 11 hours ago
Jeff Coons I’m not willing to isolate John 10:30, 17:3,5 from their context because that’s how we can get a misunderstanding of scripture. I’m willing to discuss the scriptures in their context but seems like you want to debate about the 3 isolated verses. I’m not willing to do that. I rather look at the Bible as a whole and use the scriptures in its context. If you can not do that then there is no point for the discussion.
21 Jeff Coons 8 hours ago
@Andres Landeros It seems like you are confusing grammar with context. You cannot get the context unless you understand basic grammar. Here is a definition of grammar. Merrian-Webster definition of grammar “the study of the classes of words, their inflections … and their functions and relations in the sentence” online. You have refused to show from Jesus’ own words grammatically in the sentences of these three verses that the Father and Jesus are one person. I am using a dictionary definition of grammar. To be consistent, if the words Jesus do not convey one person, the rest of the chapter and context cannot convey that the Father and Jesus are one person. So, if you do not want to discuss the grammar of these three verses, we can forget the live discussion. I am not going to get online with you and have you continue to ignore my question about the grammar of these three verses.
22 Andres Landeros 7 hours ago
Jeff Coons once again I am not ignoring your question about grammar. I specifically told you that I would not be willing to isolate a verse from its context because that is what you are trying to do. We can’t use grammar properly without its context. I have used Jesus words in the verses that you gave in its proper context. If you isolate verses you could easily fall in the error of using grammar out of context. If you want to discuss John chapter 17 I would love to from the beginning of the context.
23 Berean Perspective Apologetics 7 hours ago
Hey guys. Suggestion. Agree to debate in the Gospel of John on: Did Jesus Teach He is God the Father? And have some key verses for discussion such as John 10:30 and John 17:3-5. Come on don’t make this to complicated ✌️
24 Andres Landeros 7 hours ago
Berean Perspective Apologetics send me the link to your live stream please
25 Berean Perspective Apologetics 7 hours ago
?
26 Jeff Coons 4 hours ago (edited)
Not tonight I will get back to you guys.
27 Berean Perspective Apologetics 1 hour ago
Andres?
28 Jeff Coons 1 day ago (edited)
Afternoon Andres Kelly I am proposing a formal debate with a resolution. The resolution: “Based on the words in these verses, does the grammar in John 10:30 and John 17:3-5 demonstrate two distinct persons in God's nature?” I will take the Affirmative. Framework of the debate
Opening Statements 10 or 15-minutes max. We must present a transcript of our opening statements to Kelly. Each of us are bound to follow the text of our written opening remarks without significant alteration other than perhaps a missed term or thought-replacement word, but no new sentences are to be interjected.
Then each person has up to 5 minutes to rebut the opposing paper and reaffirm his position. After that comes the cross examination. There can be 30 seconds to ask the question and up to two minutes to answer the question. Kelly will direct the alternate sides for each question and answer.
Finally, after the Q & A, each person is given 2 minutes to restate their position and why it answers the resolution. I hope this works for you guys.
29 Andres Landeros 1 day ago
@Jeff Coons send all your information to my email alanderos38@yahoo.com. I’ll have to make some time for the debate so I can give my undivided attention.
30 Jeff Coons 1 day ago
@Andres Landeros What information am I supposed to send to you.
31 Andres Landeros 6 hours ago
Berean Perspective Apologetics I’ll be waiting for you or Jeff to email me to set up the discussion. I prefer to communicate through email. We can go live on YouTube if you want. How ever you decide. Just email me and let me know.
32 Berean Perspective Apologetics 5 hours ago (edited)
How about this for Jeff and Andres. Let have the main discussion be on John 17:3-5 and John 10:30 debating do these Scriptures teach Jesus and the Father are 2 distinct persons according to the context and grammar, or do these Scriptures teach Jesus is the Father & the Father is Jesus (1 person).
You both have openings for 5 min.
You both then have 5 minute responses
Then 30 minutes of open debate being respectful
10-15 min for questions and answers from audience Closing 5 minutes each.
This is what I suggest and believe is fair, straightforward. Jeff and Andres reply with thoughts.
33 Andres Landeros 5 hours ago
Berean Perspective Apologetics I’m ok with that but please email me.
34 Jeff Coons 41 minutes ago
@Berean Perspective Apologetics Good Afternoon Señor Powers I do not agree. My point all along has been strictly the grammar of these three verses using the words in theses verses. I can do a chapter context with Andres in a second debate.
35 Berean Perspective Apologetics 36 minutes ago
Well you guys need to work it out or it just does not happen. I gave a suggestion that’s all. You guys communicate and if you can work it great if not then I guess not great 😂
Kurt
In the online live chat Andres me this question. "Andres Landeros@ Jeff Coons first you would have to read John 17:5 in its context and find out who is praying. Is a second divine person calling another divine person the only true God?"
Hello Andres Landeros You never grammatically demonstrated from John 10:30; John 17:3 and 5 that the Father and Jesus are one person. Do not explain the verses. Use the words in the verses to show that the Father and Jesus are one person. Please do not go to Deuteronomy 6:4. It has nothing to do with my question regarding the grammar of the above three verses.
2 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
In John 17 one person is praying. God by definition doesn’t need to pray. Jesus prayed as a man. The glorification refers to the death burial and resurrection. God’s plan fulfilled brings glory to God. Jesus says “the hour is come” referring to the death on the cross. Jesus was not crucified before the world was except for in the plan and mind of God. It wasn’t fulfilled until “the hour is come”. After Jesus prayed as a man in John 18 they came and bound Jesus to crucify Him. The hour has come. Context sir.
3 Jeff Coons 2 days ago
Again you used an explanation. Use the words of Jesus. Do you know what grammar is?
4 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
Jeff Coons I did use the words of Jesus. Jesus said “the hour is come...” I’m not isolating verse 5 from the context. Verse 1 sets the contexts for the whole chapter. The hour that Jesus is speaking of is the hour of his betrayal. You won’t be using proper grammar by taking one verse out of the context. “The glory” that Jesus speaks of in John 5 is the death on the cross. We all know that Jesus was not crucified “before the world was” but was speaking of the plan God had for the salvation of mankind before the world was. The lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world. Do you know what grammar is? Do you know what context is?
5 Jeff Coons 2 days ago (edited)
I am beginning to find you a complete waste of my time. I have lost track of the number of times I have asked you to show me from the grammar of these three verses how the Father and Jesus are one person. Not once have you used the words in these three verses to answer my grammatical question.
7 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
@Jeff Coons John 17:5 the glory Jesus says he had before the world was has nothing to do with two persons. In order for you to understand John 17:5 you need to understand it in the context which begins with John 17:1. The glory Jesus was speaking of in John 17:5 is the death, burial and resurrection. Jesus did not actually die before the world was except for in the plan and foreknowledge of God. You see two persons because you fail to realize that Jesus as a man spoke in John 17 as only one person. God is omnipresent so He was able to be in heaven and on earth at the same time. This is why Jesus as a man looked to heaven and said “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:” the term “Son” always refers to God manifested in the flesh. The death of Jesus on the cross brings glory to God when he resurrected from the dead.
8 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
@Jeff Coons I have shown you with grammar and context from the verses you asked. Will you accept the answer? That’s the real question.
9 Jeff Coons 2 days ago
@Andres Landeros It has become truly clear that you are incapable of using English grammar. I have asked you countless times to use grammar based on the words in John 10:30, John 17:3 and 5. You have repeatedly refused to do so. You keep giving explanation. It is utterly impossible based on the words of Jesus and the grammar to insist that Father and Jesus are one person. They have places for people who talk about a person while believing they are the person they are talking about. I will discuss the chapter context when you show the grammar of the three verses. Also, you have to use the words in the three verses.
10 Andres Landeros 2 days ago
@Jeff Coons you said, “they have places for people who talk about a person while believing they are the person they are talking about” John 17:5 Jesus was speaking of the Father and the son. So does Jesus need to be in that place since he was talking about Himself? You believe that Jesus is only the son right?
11 Jeff Coons 1 day ago
@Andres Landeros Again, no grammatical explanation of the three verses. You say you have given the grammar. You have simply given more explanations. John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." How can the Father and Jesus be one person based on the words in this verse?
12 Andres Landeros 1 day ago
Jeff Coons you ask how can the Father and Jesus be one person. Because father and son are titles and roles that Jesus has. Jesus is His name. One person speaks in John 17:3,5. Jesus was not a trinitarian due to the fact that he spoke of the Father as the ONLY true God in John 17:3. How can one divine person say to another divine person that He is the only true God? Is it not your belief that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God? Jesus himself says the Father is the only true God. Obviously He was speaking as a genuine human being without stopping to be God. One person many different titles. Limiting God to only three titles is what you are doing. One God can have more than one title and more than one role but that does not mean that he is more than one person. Also Jesus has more than one nature. Humanity and divinity. So there’s your answer once again.
13 Berean Perspective Apologetics 19 hours ago
@Andres, you and Jeff should have a discussion on my channel sometime. You open to a live discussion?
14 Jeff Coons 1 second ago
@Berean Perspective Apologetics Yes I am open to a live discussion. I would like to see Andres apply the following definition of grammar to John 10:30; 17:3,5. Merrian-Webster definition of grammar “the study of the classes of words, their inflections … and their functions and relations in the sentence” online
15 Andres Landeros 13 hours ago
Berean Perspective Apologetics Yes is open. I would have to make time for it so I don’t have any interruptions. I’ll let you know as soon as I’m free.
16 Berean Perspective Apologetics 13 hours ago
Hi there. Cool. It will be a fair discussion, respectful, I’ll be on that. I’ll touch base with Jeff letting him know you are interested. For discussion let me know which evenings you could be available and I’m Pacific Time generally I start my shows around 7pm.
17 Jeff Coons 13 hours ago
@Berean Perspective Apologetics Just so we are clear The debate should be about the grammar of John 10:30; 17:3,5
18 Berean Perspective Apologetics 13 hours ago
@Jeff @Andres you both communicate with each other on the discussion debate specifics. I’ll set it up when ready, agreed upon things from you guys.
19 Jeff Coons 11 hours ago
@Andres Landeros In this discussion, do you agree to focus on the words in John 10:30; 17:3,5? The topic, Is the Father and Jesus one person, or are the Father and Jesus distinct persons?
20 Andres Landeros 11 hours ago
Jeff Coons I’m not willing to isolate John 10:30, 17:3,5 from their context because that’s how we can get a misunderstanding of scripture. I’m willing to discuss the scriptures in their context but seems like you want to debate about the 3 isolated verses. I’m not willing to do that. I rather look at the Bible as a whole and use the scriptures in its context. If you can not do that then there is no point for the discussion.
21 Jeff Coons 8 hours ago
@Andres Landeros It seems like you are confusing grammar with context. You cannot get the context unless you understand basic grammar. Here is a definition of grammar. Merrian-Webster definition of grammar “the study of the classes of words, their inflections … and their functions and relations in the sentence” online. You have refused to show from Jesus’ own words grammatically in the sentences of these three verses that the Father and Jesus are one person. I am using a dictionary definition of grammar. To be consistent, if the words Jesus do not convey one person, the rest of the chapter and context cannot convey that the Father and Jesus are one person. So, if you do not want to discuss the grammar of these three verses, we can forget the live discussion. I am not going to get online with you and have you continue to ignore my question about the grammar of these three verses.
22 Andres Landeros 7 hours ago
Jeff Coons once again I am not ignoring your question about grammar. I specifically told you that I would not be willing to isolate a verse from its context because that is what you are trying to do. We can’t use grammar properly without its context. I have used Jesus words in the verses that you gave in its proper context. If you isolate verses you could easily fall in the error of using grammar out of context. If you want to discuss John chapter 17 I would love to from the beginning of the context.
23 Berean Perspective Apologetics 7 hours ago
Hey guys. Suggestion. Agree to debate in the Gospel of John on: Did Jesus Teach He is God the Father? And have some key verses for discussion such as John 10:30 and John 17:3-5. Come on don’t make this to complicated ✌️
24 Andres Landeros 7 hours ago
Berean Perspective Apologetics send me the link to your live stream please
25 Berean Perspective Apologetics 7 hours ago
?
26 Jeff Coons 4 hours ago (edited)
Not tonight I will get back to you guys.
27 Berean Perspective Apologetics 1 hour ago
Andres?
28 Jeff Coons 1 day ago (edited)
Afternoon Andres Kelly I am proposing a formal debate with a resolution. The resolution: “Based on the words in these verses, does the grammar in John 10:30 and John 17:3-5 demonstrate two distinct persons in God's nature?” I will take the Affirmative. Framework of the debate
Opening Statements 10 or 15-minutes max. We must present a transcript of our opening statements to Kelly. Each of us are bound to follow the text of our written opening remarks without significant alteration other than perhaps a missed term or thought-replacement word, but no new sentences are to be interjected.
Then each person has up to 5 minutes to rebut the opposing paper and reaffirm his position. After that comes the cross examination. There can be 30 seconds to ask the question and up to two minutes to answer the question. Kelly will direct the alternate sides for each question and answer.
Finally, after the Q & A, each person is given 2 minutes to restate their position and why it answers the resolution. I hope this works for you guys.
29 Andres Landeros 1 day ago
@Jeff Coons send all your information to my email alanderos38@yahoo.com. I’ll have to make some time for the debate so I can give my undivided attention.
30 Jeff Coons 1 day ago
@Andres Landeros What information am I supposed to send to you.
31 Andres Landeros 6 hours ago
Berean Perspective Apologetics I’ll be waiting for you or Jeff to email me to set up the discussion. I prefer to communicate through email. We can go live on YouTube if you want. How ever you decide. Just email me and let me know.
32 Berean Perspective Apologetics 5 hours ago (edited)
How about this for Jeff and Andres. Let have the main discussion be on John 17:3-5 and John 10:30 debating do these Scriptures teach Jesus and the Father are 2 distinct persons according to the context and grammar, or do these Scriptures teach Jesus is the Father & the Father is Jesus (1 person).
You both have openings for 5 min.
You both then have 5 minute responses
Then 30 minutes of open debate being respectful
10-15 min for questions and answers from audience Closing 5 minutes each.
This is what I suggest and believe is fair, straightforward. Jeff and Andres reply with thoughts.
33 Andres Landeros 5 hours ago
Berean Perspective Apologetics I’m ok with that but please email me.
34 Jeff Coons 41 minutes ago
@Berean Perspective Apologetics Good Afternoon Señor Powers I do not agree. My point all along has been strictly the grammar of these three verses using the words in theses verses. I can do a chapter context with Andres in a second debate.
35 Berean Perspective Apologetics 36 minutes ago
Well you guys need to work it out or it just does not happen. I gave a suggestion that’s all. You guys communicate and if you can work it great if not then I guess not great 😂
Kurt
In the online live chat Andres me this question. "Andres Landeros@ Jeff Coons first you would have to read John 17:5 in its context and find out who is praying. Is a second divine person calling another divine person the only true God?"