Our Emails about the Debate
From: Jeff Coons
To: alanderos
Date: Oct 18, 2020, 8:16 PM
Subject: Debate
I am proposing a formal debate with a resolution. The resolution: “Based on the words in these verses, does the grammar in John 10:30 and John 17:3-5 demonstrate two distinct persons in God's nature?” I will take the Affirmative. Framework of the debate Opening Statements 10 or 15-minutes max. We must present a transcript of our opening statements to Kelly. Each of us are bound to follow the text of our written opening remarks without significant alteration other than perhaps a missed term or thought-replacement word, but no new sentences are to be interjected. Then each person has up to 5 minutes to rebut the opposing paper and reaffirm his position. After that comes the cross examination. There can be 30 seconds to ask the question and up to two minutes to answer the question. Kelly will direct the alternate sides for each question and answer. Finally, after the Q & A, each person is given 2 minutes to restate their position and why it answers the resolution.
From: Andres Landeros
To: Jeff Coons
Date: Oct 19, 2020, 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: Debate
Hey Jeff,
I’m glad you emailed me. I’m waiting for Kelly’s email. He has a different idea on the discussion. Also how will we be going live? Will it be through YouTube, Zoom, Skype etc.? Also I’m going to need some time to prepare an opening statement that will be short enough for the time frame given. I’m going to try to get my point across in the amount of time that we will be using. We also need to agree on a date and time. I’m sure you are a busy person as well as I am. I have a wife and two year old that I need to attend to so it’s important I plan properly. Sent from my iPhone
From:Jeff Coons
To:Andres Landeros
Date:Oct 20, 2020, 7:43 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Berean Perspective Apologetics
How about this for Jeff and Andres. Let have the main discussion be on John 17:3-5 and John 10:30 debating do these Scriptures teach Jesus and the Father are 2 distinct persons according to the context and grammar, or do these Scriptures teach Jesus is the Father & the Father is Jesus (1 person). You both have openings for 5 min. You both then have 5 minute responses Then 30 minutes of open debate being respectful 10-15 min for questions and answers from audience Closing 5 minutes each. This is what I suggest and believe is fair, straightforward. Jeff and Andres reply with thoughts.
Andres Landeros
Berean Perspective Apologetics I’m ok with that but please email me.
Jeff Coons
@Berean Perspective Apologetics Good Afternoon Señor Powers I do not agree. My point all along has been strictly the grammar of these three verses using the words in theses verses. I can do a chapter context with Andres in a second debate.
From:Jeff Coons
To:Andres Landeros
Date:Oct 21, 2020, 5:54 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Good Evening Andres
I would like to make sure we are on the same page for the debate. The debate is supposed to be strictly the grammar of these three verses using the words in these verses only and not the context of the chapter. If we have the debate, it will only be a grammar debate using only the words in the three verses, John 10:30; 14:3 and 5.
Do you agree to a strictly grammar debate where we are having a discussion on the grammar of the words in these three verses to bring about a resolution that the "Father and Jesus are two distinct persons or one person"?
From:Andres Landeros
To:Jeff Coons
Date:Oct 21, 2020, 7:12 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Hey Jeff. Sorry but I’m not willing to debate over isolated verses. The grammar in those verses must be understood in their proper context. Failure to do so will result in a misunderstanding of the point Jesus was trying to get across. Like I keep saying, grammar could be used wrong if not used in its proper context. Jesus said I and my Father are one in its context. Jews picked up stones to kill Him because they understood what He said in a wrong way. They thought it was a man who made Himself God but it was really God who made Himself man. Sent from my iPhone
From:Andres Landeros
To:Jeff Coons
Date:Oct 21, 2020, 7:22 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
To read Jesus words out of context is a hermeneutical error. The Bible must be read in context. If you would like to discuss whether Jesus is the Father then I would love to share my views.
From:Jeff Coons
To:Andres Landeros
Date:Oct 21, 2020, 7:57 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Good Evening Andres
Like I said, the grammar of an isolated verse will not contradict the greater context. In our exchanges, you have continued to prove that you cannot prove from Jesus' own words that the Father and Jesus are one person. In your E-mail, you used John 10:30 to show Jesus is God. Great! John 10:30-33 does show that Jesus as a man is God. However, the three verses do not show that the Father and Jesus are one person. I can prove from the grammar of John 10:30 that the Father and Jesus are not one person without violating the greater context.
We can have two debates. The first debate has to be strictly the grammar of these three verses based on the words in the verses. The second debate can be on grammar and context. We can have two debates, one my way and the second your way. What do you think The resolution of the first debate will be as stated in our first E-mail.
From: Andres Landeros
To: Jeff Coons
Date: Oct 21, 2020, 9:49 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Jeff here is your error and why I won’t debate over isolated verses. You said “John 10:30-33 does show that Jesus as a man is God.” I’m guessing you’re not seeing your error. The Jews that Jesus spoke to viewed God as the Father alone. This is why they wanted to stone Jesus because anyone claiming to be God was claiming to be the Father according to the Jews. That is the context that I understand since that is who Jesus was speaking to. The Jews never viewed God as a trinity but they only viewed God as the Father. Also in the other verses in John 17:3 Jesus Himself speaks as a man and calls the Father the Only true God. To you the only true God is the trinity but to Jesus the only true God is the Father. I would like to say though that John 17 has nothing to do with two distinct persons but in its context Jesus was speaking as a genuine authentic human being to the only true God the Father for our sakes. Jesus did not need to pray but did so for our example. Two distinct natures not two distinct persons. Ok now for the last verse. John 17:5 the glory that Jesus speaks of that He had before the world was is referring to His death on the cross that was planned in the mind of God before the world was. I get this understanding when read in the context of Jesus own words in John 17:1 when Jesus says, “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:” THE HOUR IS COME. What does Jesus mean by the hour is come? He was speaking of the hour of His death on the cross. The “glory” in John 17:5 was speaking of the glorification (death) of Jesus (John 7:39). To say that Jesus and God the Father are two distinct persons is to say that they are two distinct beings because there is no difference between being and person since the word person is defined as an individual self-conscience being. The doctrine of trinity has been developed throughout the years to what it is today due to a failure of reading the Bible out of context and focusing solely on the grammar of the words that are meant to be read with a spiritual mindset. God bless. Sent from my iPhone
To: alanderos
Date: Oct 18, 2020, 8:16 PM
Subject: Debate
I am proposing a formal debate with a resolution. The resolution: “Based on the words in these verses, does the grammar in John 10:30 and John 17:3-5 demonstrate two distinct persons in God's nature?” I will take the Affirmative. Framework of the debate Opening Statements 10 or 15-minutes max. We must present a transcript of our opening statements to Kelly. Each of us are bound to follow the text of our written opening remarks without significant alteration other than perhaps a missed term or thought-replacement word, but no new sentences are to be interjected. Then each person has up to 5 minutes to rebut the opposing paper and reaffirm his position. After that comes the cross examination. There can be 30 seconds to ask the question and up to two minutes to answer the question. Kelly will direct the alternate sides for each question and answer. Finally, after the Q & A, each person is given 2 minutes to restate their position and why it answers the resolution.
From: Andres Landeros
To: Jeff Coons
Date: Oct 19, 2020, 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: Debate
Hey Jeff,
I’m glad you emailed me. I’m waiting for Kelly’s email. He has a different idea on the discussion. Also how will we be going live? Will it be through YouTube, Zoom, Skype etc.? Also I’m going to need some time to prepare an opening statement that will be short enough for the time frame given. I’m going to try to get my point across in the amount of time that we will be using. We also need to agree on a date and time. I’m sure you are a busy person as well as I am. I have a wife and two year old that I need to attend to so it’s important I plan properly. Sent from my iPhone
From:Jeff Coons
To:Andres Landeros
Date:Oct 20, 2020, 7:43 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Berean Perspective Apologetics
How about this for Jeff and Andres. Let have the main discussion be on John 17:3-5 and John 10:30 debating do these Scriptures teach Jesus and the Father are 2 distinct persons according to the context and grammar, or do these Scriptures teach Jesus is the Father & the Father is Jesus (1 person). You both have openings for 5 min. You both then have 5 minute responses Then 30 minutes of open debate being respectful 10-15 min for questions and answers from audience Closing 5 minutes each. This is what I suggest and believe is fair, straightforward. Jeff and Andres reply with thoughts.
Andres Landeros
Berean Perspective Apologetics I’m ok with that but please email me.
Jeff Coons
@Berean Perspective Apologetics Good Afternoon Señor Powers I do not agree. My point all along has been strictly the grammar of these three verses using the words in theses verses. I can do a chapter context with Andres in a second debate.
From:Jeff Coons
To:Andres Landeros
Date:Oct 21, 2020, 5:54 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Good Evening Andres
I would like to make sure we are on the same page for the debate. The debate is supposed to be strictly the grammar of these three verses using the words in these verses only and not the context of the chapter. If we have the debate, it will only be a grammar debate using only the words in the three verses, John 10:30; 14:3 and 5.
Do you agree to a strictly grammar debate where we are having a discussion on the grammar of the words in these three verses to bring about a resolution that the "Father and Jesus are two distinct persons or one person"?
From:Andres Landeros
To:Jeff Coons
Date:Oct 21, 2020, 7:12 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Hey Jeff. Sorry but I’m not willing to debate over isolated verses. The grammar in those verses must be understood in their proper context. Failure to do so will result in a misunderstanding of the point Jesus was trying to get across. Like I keep saying, grammar could be used wrong if not used in its proper context. Jesus said I and my Father are one in its context. Jews picked up stones to kill Him because they understood what He said in a wrong way. They thought it was a man who made Himself God but it was really God who made Himself man. Sent from my iPhone
From:Andres Landeros
To:Jeff Coons
Date:Oct 21, 2020, 7:22 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
To read Jesus words out of context is a hermeneutical error. The Bible must be read in context. If you would like to discuss whether Jesus is the Father then I would love to share my views.
From:Jeff Coons
To:Andres Landeros
Date:Oct 21, 2020, 7:57 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Good Evening Andres
Like I said, the grammar of an isolated verse will not contradict the greater context. In our exchanges, you have continued to prove that you cannot prove from Jesus' own words that the Father and Jesus are one person. In your E-mail, you used John 10:30 to show Jesus is God. Great! John 10:30-33 does show that Jesus as a man is God. However, the three verses do not show that the Father and Jesus are one person. I can prove from the grammar of John 10:30 that the Father and Jesus are not one person without violating the greater context.
We can have two debates. The first debate has to be strictly the grammar of these three verses based on the words in the verses. The second debate can be on grammar and context. We can have two debates, one my way and the second your way. What do you think The resolution of the first debate will be as stated in our first E-mail.
From: Andres Landeros
To: Jeff Coons
Date: Oct 21, 2020, 9:49 PM
Subject:Re: Debate
Jeff here is your error and why I won’t debate over isolated verses. You said “John 10:30-33 does show that Jesus as a man is God.” I’m guessing you’re not seeing your error. The Jews that Jesus spoke to viewed God as the Father alone. This is why they wanted to stone Jesus because anyone claiming to be God was claiming to be the Father according to the Jews. That is the context that I understand since that is who Jesus was speaking to. The Jews never viewed God as a trinity but they only viewed God as the Father. Also in the other verses in John 17:3 Jesus Himself speaks as a man and calls the Father the Only true God. To you the only true God is the trinity but to Jesus the only true God is the Father. I would like to say though that John 17 has nothing to do with two distinct persons but in its context Jesus was speaking as a genuine authentic human being to the only true God the Father for our sakes. Jesus did not need to pray but did so for our example. Two distinct natures not two distinct persons. Ok now for the last verse. John 17:5 the glory that Jesus speaks of that He had before the world was is referring to His death on the cross that was planned in the mind of God before the world was. I get this understanding when read in the context of Jesus own words in John 17:1 when Jesus says, “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:” THE HOUR IS COME. What does Jesus mean by the hour is come? He was speaking of the hour of His death on the cross. The “glory” in John 17:5 was speaking of the glorification (death) of Jesus (John 7:39). To say that Jesus and God the Father are two distinct persons is to say that they are two distinct beings because there is no difference between being and person since the word person is defined as an individual self-conscience being. The doctrine of trinity has been developed throughout the years to what it is today due to a failure of reading the Bible out of context and focusing solely on the grammar of the words that are meant to be read with a spiritual mindset. God bless. Sent from my iPhone